Curse

Arkantos · Jul 11, 2009, 06:48 AM // 06:48

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Try Mallyx the Unyeilding in HM and then call the monsters static and unchanging.

The monsters are static and unchanging.

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Even if you suck, if you're a great person and people like you - they will quite often take you on and help you.

Don't think I've encountered many people in Guild Wars who enjoyed failing because of a bad player.

Dont Nerf The Perma · Jul 11, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

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Originally Posted by Avarre

The monsters are static and unchanging.

well unchanging yes but each area is different. But they are defiantly not static.

I interpreted that the wrong way. I though he meant all the monsters in the game were virtually the same and easy to defeat.

FengShuiDove · Jul 11, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

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Originally Posted by Avarre

-snip-

Exactly. More intermediate options to bridge the great divide between low-end and high-end play. In my opinion. world PvP will be a good idea as it gives you some options to experiment with PvP in a setting you're comfortable with.

Pretty much Avarre has it penned in this post.

Verene · Jul 11, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

I think the "if you don't have rank you're not good" argument is crap. Everyone's got to start out everywhere. You're not going to automatically dive in and be r8. And what about those who dive in and learn how to adapt to the format quickly but, because they're new to it, have no rank or a low one? Then they're just getting screwed because people think that high rank is everything. And even those who refuse to play with anyone below a certain rank sucked horribly at some point.

You want people to PvP, then try being a bit more accepting of those who are just starting out. It'll help.

Anyway, I really don't PvP because, well, there's just nothing about it that's appealing to me. You're beating the crap out of each other. Okay, why? Oh. There's no reason to it. Hmm. Don't get me wrong, I like beating the crap out of stuff in games. But, when it comes down to it, I'm a roleplayer at heart. Grew up on RP video games, turned to tabletop RPs when I got older, still play both extensively. When I get into a game, it's because I get into the plot. I like the story behind everything. I like know why it is that I'm doing what I'm doing.

But PvP has none of that. It's just...beat the crap out of random people. What's the appeal in that? For me, there isn't any. Competitive gaming has never been my cup of tea in any format.

Dont Nerf The Perma · Jul 11, 2009, 07:14 AM // 07:14

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Originally Posted by Verene

Okay, why? Oh. There's no reason to it. Hmm.

lol

Theres no reason for anything in this game. PvE has no point to it either. You get the most expensive weapons in the game... you beat all campaigns... you get a obby set for all your characters... you max out all your titles and get God among mere mortals... what have you achieved? Nothing. But its fun.

Same thing for PvP. You killed all of them and omg you won. You get a big load of NOTHING! Except more balthazar points to spend on more skills to win more matchs so you can get more of NOTHING. But its still fun

dr love · Jul 11, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

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Originally Posted by Verene

PvP has none of that. It's just...beat the crap out of random people. What's the appeal in that?

cuz you get to /zrank their dead bodies.

but i think it just feels more fulfilling to beat other players, than c space monsters

Avarre · Jul 11, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

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Originally Posted by Verene

I think the "if you don't have rank you're not good" argument is crap. Everyone's got to start out everywhere.

Absolutely true. And where they started out is 'as a bad player'.

Rank isn't skill. There isn't a good player in the world who believes that it is. What rank is, however, is a measure of experience. When it comes down to it, the bad player with experience is worth more than the bad player without it, because, much like PvE, understanding the battle is massively important.

PvP isn't about beating up randoms. That's actually one of the key points of GW PvP - it's organized and fairly competitive rather than a brawling gankfest. Organization, arrangement, preparation, and execution. For the reward of knowing you succeeded (and sometimes, real-world prizes).

Verene · Jul 11, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

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Originally Posted by Dont Nerf The Perma

lol

Theres no reason for anything in this game. PvE has no point to it either. You get the most expensive weapons in the game... you beat all campaigns... you get a obby set for all your characters... you max out all your titles and get God among mere mortals... what have you achieved? Nothing. But its fun.

Same thing for PvP. You killed all of them and omg you won. You get a big load of NOTHING! Except more balthazar points to spend on more skills to win more matchs so you can get more of NOTHING. But its still fun

Yeah, did you see where I said the main reason I enjoy PvE?

I'm a very plot-based person. I don't care about the shinies, I don't title-hunt, and I probably won't get more than just the one elite armor set I own now. Sure, that stuff can be nice, but it's not important to me.

But give me a good story and I'm hooked. And GW's plots can be rather convulated but they're really not half-bad. There is, in-game, a point to what you are doing. PvP lacks this. And combined with a format that I've never enjoyed, I feel no desire to play it.

(Obsidian armor is ugly, anyway

)

Dont Nerf The Perma · Jul 11, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

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Originally Posted by Avarre

PvP isn't about beating up randoms.

thats what RA is for

Chthon · Jul 11, 2009, 07:23 AM // 07:23

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Originally Posted by Nerel

What do you think kept players from making the transition into becoming regular PvP players?

The answer is quite simple: They want to play PvE. They have no interest in playing PvP.

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Why is the PvP population so abysmally small compared to the masses of people happily grinding their way through PvE.

More people enjoy PvE than PvP.

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More importantly, what can ArenaNet do with GW2 to make a smoother transition between PvE and PvP

You presume, incorrectly, that people want to make that transition at all. The lesson to learn from GW1 is that they don't.

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Originally Posted by Dont Nerf The Perma

Try Mallyx the Unyeilding in HM and then call the monsters static and unchanging.

The monsters are static and unchanging. Some may be challenging, but they are nonetheless static and unchanging.

Still Number One · Jul 11, 2009, 07:25 AM // 07:25

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Originally Posted by Verene

I think the "if you don't have rank you're not good" argument is crap.

It isn't if you don't have rank you aren't good. It is if you don't have rank you have no proof that you have a proper understanding of the environment you are about to dive into.

I think the "Just because I don't have rank doesn't give you the right to discriminate against me" argument is crap. Why should someone who wants to win take players who have no proof of experience into their group? Sure you may get lucky every once in a while and get a really good player. I guarantee you 90% of the time you are going to get someone who will lose you games. In PvP areas like HA and GvG, if one person can not do their job, your team will lose.

New players need to learn with other new players. It is how pretty much everyone you watch on obs started off. They weren't automatically thrown into a top rank guild and they didn't automatically play with rank 11 players. They joined a guild of scrubs and played against other scrubs until they learned how to not be a scrub.

People need to realize you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. You don't get to be in rawr just because you want to. You don't get to have a phoenix because you think it looks cool. You have to work your tail off for years and have the motivation to be the best and continually improve your skill day in and day out non stop. No one owes you anything. You have to earn it. Stop whining about not getting hand outs and start taking what you want by learning the game and performing.

Avarre · Jul 11, 2009, 07:28 AM // 07:28

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Originally Posted by Dont Nerf The Perma

thats what RA is for

Well, I sure hope verene isn't judging PvP based on RA.

Artisan Archer · Jul 11, 2009, 07:29 AM // 07:29

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Originally Posted by Still Number One

People need to realize you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. You don't get to be in rawr just because you want to. You don't get to have a phoenix because you think it looks cool. You have to work your tail off for years and have the motivation to be the best and continually improve your skill day in and day out non stop. No one owes you anything. You have to earn it. Stop whining about not getting hand outs and start taking what you want by learning the game and performing.

The problem is most people don't care about the game enough to do this, hence the tiny pvp population.

Arkantos · Jul 11, 2009, 07:34 AM // 07:34

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You presume, incorrectly, that people want to make that transition at all. The lesson to learn from GW1 is that they don't.

Since when were you the spokesperson for the entire PvE community?

Yeah, many PvE players don't PvP because they don't want to. Many PvE players also want to PvP, but cannot get into it.

Many PvE players have also tried, failed, and just stayed away. That's what the OP is talking about: the gap between PvE and PvP. The whole point of this thread is to talk about things that ANet can do to bridge the gap. If you don't want to PvP, don't. That doesn't mean everyone else shares that opinion.

You can't say that's the lesson learned from GW1, because it never failed, ANet just stopped. PvP was doing fine back before ANet started majorly focusing on PvE.

Verene · Jul 11, 2009, 07:37 AM // 07:37

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Originally Posted by Avarre

Well, I sure hope verene isn't judging PvP based on RA.

RA (kinda fun but pretty much only if you get lucky) and Hero Battles (...*snores*) are basically the only PvP I've ever dabbled in. Tried out Jade Quarry for the first time last night. Higher-end/more organized PvP I've never tried and probably never will. Not interested in it, and I don't feel like leaving my guild to try to find a PvP guild.

I've just simply never cared much for competitive gaming. I've always leaned much more towards co-op.

(incidentally, there's got to be other PvE'rs that dislike Shadow Form, right? I finally got around to giving it a try on my Assassin and after like five minutes went "well, this is certainly overpowered but it's also boring" and just went back to playing the game properly...)

YunSooJin · Jul 11, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

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Originally Posted by Dont Nerf The Perma

Exactly why HA is stupid. Can't do BS if you don't have rank even if you are a good player.

You must not play PvE much.

Try Mallyx the Unyeilding in HM and then call the monsters static and unchanging.

you're making a lot of stupid assumptions that go a long way to illuminating how little you really know.

HA requires that you know more than just being a 'good player'. There's a lot of ins and outs from map to map that you simply cannot be effective at unless you've had some measurable level of experience. The only possible scenario where you really are a 'good player' and not have rank is if you do hardcore GvG, and if you are into GvG at all you'd be in the tiny minority of people who'd ever want to even bother with HA if they already do GvG.

Mallyx was/is stupid/easy. Yawn. Unchanging? Check. How is Mallyx not unchanging? It's not like his bar changes each time you go in. You really should go back and look up 'static' and 'unchanging', just in case your vocabulary isn't up to par.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dont Nerf The Perma

well unchanging yes but each area is different. But they are defiantly not static.

I interpreted that the wrong way. I though he meant all the monsters in the game were virtually the same and easy to defeat.

You interpreted the wrong way? Uhh, I don't see how you could interpret it the wrong way, unless you're just making up shit about what I mean.. The monsters in GW by and large are virtually the same. Mallyx has some gimmicks. Oh noes. It's easier than a stupid EoE bomb to avoid (bless that build).. it's not like you don't know exactly what he's going to do.

Still Number One · Jul 11, 2009, 07:41 AM // 07:41

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Originally Posted by Artisan Archer

The problem is most people don't care about the game enough to do this, hence the tiny pvp population.

If you don't have the desire, then I don't want to play with you. So no harm no foul.

The problem really is the fact that after the real tournaments stopped, a lot of players left. They wanted the real life prizes and the free trips around the world. Once those were gone they moved on to other games that probably would offer similar prizes. Because of the population drop it took longer to find matches and so more people left. It wasn't worth it to wait 30 minutes only to stomp a guild in 3.

And then the point of people not being motivated comes in. The only incentive in PvP for the PvE players is shiny trim or a rank emote (besides the fun of the game). They find out that no guild capable of getting them those prizes wants them because they haven't proven themselves and they get upset. They play with bad players and find out that they are losing a lot. They get a thought in their head that they are great and everyone else in their guild is bad and they get upset about it. They try to move up and get into a better guild saying the players in their last guild were holding them back but get the same response as before. Sorry you aren't good enough. They get upset think everyone is an elitist asshole and quit PvP and consider it a terrible part of Guild Wars that should be deleted from existence.

People have no patience and no work effort anymore. It goes outside of Guild Wars as well. I notice everywhere I go that a lot of my peers were extremely spoiled growing up and think everything should be handed to them. At my university, a lot of kids think that they deserve an A just because they are paying to take the class. They don't think they should have to earn their grade. It is extremely frustrating to be around people like this. The same goes for Guild Wars PvP. People think they deserve to be in a good guild. They don't want to take the time and put in the work in order to earn a spot. They were handed everything they wanted to them earlier in life and they get upset when something doesn't go their way.

Obviously I'm not saying this is every single example but you have to be blind to not notice this happening at least a little. I deal with this kind of attitude everyday during University life and I endured it all the time in my Guild Wars playing days.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jul 11, 2009, 07:44 AM // 07:44

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Originally Posted by Verene

I think the "if you don't have rank you're not good" argument is crap. Everyone's got to start out everywhere. You're not going to automatically dive in and be r8. And what about those who dive in and learn how to adapt to the format quickly but, because they're new to it, have no rank or a low one? Then they're just getting screwed because people think that high rank is everything. And even those who refuse to play with anyone below a certain rank sucked horribly at some point.

You want people to PvP, then try being a bit more accepting of those who are just starting out. It'll help.

Anyway, I really don't PvP because, well, there's just nothing about it that's appealing to me. You're beating the crap out of each other. Okay, why? Oh. There's no reason to it. Hmm. Don't get me wrong, I like beating the crap out of stuff in games. But, when it comes down to it, I'm a roleplayer at heart. Grew up on RP video games, turned to tabletop RPs when I got older, still play both extensively. When I get into a game, it's because I get into the plot. I like the story behind everything. I like know why it is that I'm doing what I'm doing.

But PvP has none of that. It's just...beat the crap out of random people. What's the appeal in that? For me, there isn't any. Competitive gaming has never been my cup of tea in any format.

Arkantos: Well it's not like I'm a terrible player - I mean play like rank 300-400ish GvG, I just lack experience and people see how often I play and how dedicated I am and they're happy to take me.

To the quoted post, you CAN be a very good player in other parts of the game but you can't be good in HA without HAVING SOME EXPERIENCE. People take r8+r9's because they're less likely to screw up - alot of the r8+r9's are full of people that ebayed/gimmicked their title so they're bad and fail alot of the time - If you look at the people winning halls everyday, it's pretty much the same people with one or two randoms that got lucky so you shouldn't think that once you've grinded your r9 you're going to hold halls 7-8 times a day. Rank is what comes as a result of playing with people, gaining experience and building up a friendlist.

I've been playing HA for like 2 months, I watch replays when I'm in halls or against top guilds, I ask people what I'm doing wrong, I talk to well known players and ask(beg) them for advice and generally just try to improve my game - I'm on summer break waiting for college so im on guild wars for like 6-7 hours a day. I still make lots of mistakes although im only r3 I can see a HUGE difference between ranked and unranked (at least those which didn't gimmick/ebay).

People don't want to play with some randoms that suck hard and just leave after like 20 minutes because they get butthurt. If people can take criticism and others think they're in for the long haul then I think people are happy to help (It's not really that hard when you have someone in your ear explaining the basics).

So quit whining, leave your cushy PvE alliance and join a dedicated guild.

Dont Nerf The Perma · Jul 11, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46

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Originally Posted by Still Number One

I think the "Just because I don't have rank doesn't give you the right to discriminate against me" argument is crap. Why should someone who wants to win take players who have no proof of experience into their group?

People need to realize you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. You don't get to be in rawr just because you want to. You don't get to have a phoenix because you think it looks cool.

so we have to work our experience up so we get the exp but we still have no rank. in HA we have no rank we can't get a group and if we can't get a group we can't get a rank so no matter how hard we work unless we have pro friends we can't get anywhere.

Still Number One · Jul 11, 2009, 07:49 AM // 07:49

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Originally Posted by Dont Nerf The Perma

so we have to work our experience up so we get the exp but we still have no rank. in HA we have no rank we can't get a group and if we can't get a group we can't get a rank so no matter how hard we work unless we have pro friends we can't get anywhere.

How about you join a freaking guild with players like you and you learn how to play the game? If you want to play pro basketball someday you don't start playing with Micheal Jordan. You play in little rec camps with other 5 year olds and learn the game. You move on and play throughout grade school and then into college. Then if you are lucky, you make the pros. You have to earn your place and you have to play with people on the level you are at. If you are at level 0, you play with people at level 0.